Windows Embedded Standard CTP (August 28, 2008)

Chat Topic: Windows Embedded Standard CTP Refresh Chat
Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Welcome to today’s chat with the Windows Embedded Standard team!  On 8/12/08 we released a Community Technology Preview (CTP) Refresh of Windows Embedded Standard, the next generation of Windows XP Embedded.  In addition, a CTP of SP3 for Windows XP Embedded was released.  Hopefully everyone has downloaded these from Microsoft Connect and has been trying them out over the past few weeks.  We’ve got the program managers, developers, and testers involved with Windows Embedded Standard online today to talk to you about this very exciting release.  Please feel free to ask any questions about these CTPs, or give us your feedback on your experiences in using the products.  As always, we’re also happy to help answer any other questions related to Windows XP Embedded!

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.

Introductions: 

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Hi there.  I'm MattK, a Test Engineer on the Windows Embedded Standard Team.

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Hello! I’m Luca Amapane, Program Manager on the Windows Embedded Standard team.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Lynda Allen, a Program Manager for the Windows Embedded Standard team. My focus is mainly on customer and community activities.

Preston V [MS] (Expert):
I'm Preston VanderWeyst, a Software Design Engineer on the Windows Embedded Standard Team

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Moderator):
Hello, I am Weijuan Shi, Program Manager of the Windows Embedded Standard team.

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Shayna Begun and I'm a Program Manager on the Windows Embedded Standard team focused on working with customers on our pre-release activities.

Xianming [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Xianming Wu, Software Development Engineer on the Windows Embedded Standard Team

Lesley Bacon [MS] (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Lesley Bacon, a Program Manager on the Windows Embedded Standard Team.

Chesong [MSFT] (Expert):
Hello, I am Chesong Lee, a Software Development Engineer on the Windows Embedded Standard Team.

NickJ[MS] (Expert):
Hi I'm Nick Jayawardana, a Software Development Engineer on the Windows Embedded Standard Team

Matt Stokes [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm a software developer on the Windows Embedded Standard Team

Bobby [MS] (Expert):
Hi all, I am Bobby, Windows Embedded Componentization Test Team Lead.

Crystal [MSFT] (Expert):
Hello, I am Crystal Parker and am the project manager for the Windows Embedded Standard products

Gina [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Gina, Program Manager on the Windows Embedded Standard Team.

Nick -MSFT- (Expert):
Hi - My name is Nick and I'm a SDET (Software Developer in the Test org) here at Microsoft.  I've been working with Windows XP Embedded for approximately 7 years now.

Start of Chat:

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Let’s begin the chat!

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: When can we expect full MUI in releases
A: Windows Embedded Standard already supports 23 languages. Would you like support for additional languages? Can you please clarify your question.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: What is the minimal footprint for an OS config running .NET 3.5?  I built a "information appliance" config with NET3.5 and it is 1.5GB!
A: An Information Appliance is one of the biggest runtimes you can build with the Design Templates. It will bring in a bunch of Windows features that are not related to .NET 3.5. To get a better idea of runtime size for .NET 3.5 build a Winlogon Sample Macro plus the .NET 3.5 feature. Runtime size will always depend on what features you need for your actual device functionality. The .NET 3.5 component itself is around 60MB.

Nick -MSFT- (Expert):
Q: In FBWF, when you exclude a folder using /addexclusion, does the sub-folder are also exclude?
A: *ALL* contents of an excluded folder are excluded from protection of FBWF.

Nick -MSFT- (Expert):
Q: (FBWF) Also regarding /addexclusion,  I got a problem I exclude a folder (ex: c:\myfiles\songs\) but if I put to many files in the folder c:\myfiles, all my system stop to work teling me I don't have enough resource? (note: my threshold is set to 512)
A: The issue here is you’re excluding “C:\myfiles\songs” which means that when changes/additions/deletions are performed *IN* this folder that those changes *DO NOT* affect the FBWF cache size.  Since you’re putting your files into “C:\myfiles” in your example - “C:\myfiles” *IS* being protected by FBWF.  What that means is that any changes/additions/deletions are performed in this folder then those changes *DO* affect the FBWF cache size.

Ultimately what is happening is that because you’re putting files into “c:\myfiles”, those files are increasing the FBWF cache size, and ultimately you end up hitting the cache limit (if you use pre-allocation) or you’ll end up with some system instability for which you have to reboot to correct. (if you are using dynamic allocation - regardless of whether it’s compressed or not)

Chesong [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: (FBWF .. again) I did read that settings overlay compression does help for the amount of size  and the number of file I can "touch" but I also saw that it consume more CPU power. Does overlay compression use that much CPU?
A: Compression carries CPU overhead around as much as NTFS compression.

Chesong [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: (yes.. Q. on FBWF again)I got an application where file I/O calls are made from the Windows kernel environment, will it have problem running in a partition that have FBWF enable?
A: As long as your user-mode or kernel-mode application does not exploit the limitation of FBWF, it will just work fine.

Chesong [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Thanks Chesong  but that the bad thing, the I\O doesn't work well as it crash when it's try to create or write to files.
A: Steve, do you mean that an I/O from your kernel mode application crashes the system?

Nick -MSFT- (Expert):
Q: No, it's crash the application (Real -Time application).
A: So at about ~200 MB, because you used the dynamic overlay type, the system will become instable.  Applications will fail to run because they cannot get memory from the Paged Pool space. (that's where dynamic mode gets its memory from)  If you use pre-allocated the filter gets its memory from non-paged space and therefore is more reliable.  The system should actually be able to reach the threshold that you’ve specified.  Essentially - in the Windows XP operating system - the memory manager only has so many memory pages in the paged pool space.  Once those are gone the system will not be able to launch any more applications - and could cause others which were already running - to crash.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: I'm a complete beginner on XPe, and I work with safety-critical/mission-critical systems. What's your opinion on using XPe in such kind of solutions?
A: WES cannot be used in any mission-critical or life-critical applications. It is not licensed for those situations.

Preston V [MS] (Expert):
Q: My current understanding is that WES will be (is) componentized. I'm wondering about the granularity of the components. For example, will I be able to pick and choose finer grain components from the .NET 3.5 component?
A: .NET 3.5 will not be broken down in to smaller selectable components

Preston V [MS] (Expert):
Q: To my knowledge Windows CE is almost realtime OS. What about realtime features in WES? Are there any of those?
A: WES is not a realtime OS.  However, there are 3rd party realtime extensions available.

Gina [MS] (Expert):
Q: What are the features, updates and addons included in SP3?
A: Microsoft® Windows® XP Embedded Service Pack 3 (SP3) is a roll-up of hot-fixes and security updates MS has released since the release to manufacturing (RTM) of SP2. It includes select out-of-band releases, and a small number of new enhancements, which do not significantly change the customers’ experience with the operating system. The SP3 update for XP Embedded is on par with the XP Pro SP3 update with regard to the roll-up and inclusion of out-of-band releases.

Gina [MS] (Expert):
Q: What are those small enhancements in SP3?
A: They include things like non-security update, for example including the optional updates we have made available previously.

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: What are the main changes from XPe to WES?  I (finally) got it to install and as far as the GUI it looks about the same.
A: Windows Embedded Standard delivers new functionality on top of XPe. Key features include Silverlight, .NET 3.5, RDP 6.1 and Windows Server 2008 interoperability, SCCM OSD, Sysprep, new device drivers, a new out of box experience, SP3 and much more!

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: What do you mean by "a new out of box experience"?
A: New out of box experience means a single DVD for the entire product instead of the multiple CDs for XPe and a unified setup experience.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Our WES product will feature a removable primary drive, most likely a CF card.  Any best practice suggestions for securing data if the primary drive is removed and mounted in another system (e.g. laptop)?
A: This is an interesting case, but for all intents and purposes, it should work just like removing and remounting the primary drive of an XP Pro system.  Putting a system's primary drive into another computer will enable the second system to see whatever is on that drive, assuming you haven't secured it with NTFS encryption or a third-party encryption program.  ACLs on the files and folders may also help, although it's not necessarily guaranteed that you can completely secure data on the drive in this manner.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I have a new project targeted at XPe. Looking toward WES, what is the recommendation on doing everything as components? I heard that WES did not use the same component model and that it was no long recommended to use components for the custom app.
A: WES uses the same component model as XP Embedded, and you can still componentize third-party drivers and applications as before.  Componentizing your application enables it to be "pre-installed" in a runtime without requiring that you also include the necessary components to install the program post-FBA.  This can save you some footprint.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there any limitations that I should know with XPe(WES) when booted on an USB device (used USB boot)?
A: The main limitation that you'll want to be aware of is that WES will cause the USB boot drive to become "fixed" - ie. it'll treat the USB drive as a fixed drive, and therefore it cannot be removed from the computer while the system is booted into that image without crashing the runtime.  You may also want to consider protecting the drive with EWF or FBWF to minimize write activity to the USB drive, as this can extend the life of the device.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: So an image on a USB drive can go in standby or hibernate with XPe(WES)?
A: I believe (though I'm not completely sure) that you can standby on a USB drive, but hibernation is not currently supported.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: need better dependency tools, wanted to add Nortel Extranet VPN client, had to search tons of components and primitives, dependency walker and procmon isn't a helpful, any future developments here?
A: For the WES timeframe there are no specific developments to create dependency tools. I highly recommend using Sean Liming's Component Helper for a quick way of creating a basic custom component for a 3rd party app or feature that you want to include (http://www.sjjmicro.com).

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: I noticed Sysprep listed as new functionality.  Does that replace the use of IDIFF.exe and IDA.exe or supplement their use?
A: Sysprep does not replace IDIFF or IDA. Sysprep is the tool required to prepare the target image for deployment through SCCM.

johndoy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: What is the product support story for Windows Embedded Standard?
A: Windows Embedded Standard support is defined by the Microsoft Support Lifecycle Policy.  Windows Embedded Standard is categorized in the “Business and Developer product” category and as such, Microsoft will support Windows Embedded Standard for a MINIMUM of 10 years at the Service Pack Level from the original product release date.

Gina [MS] (Expert):
Q: What is the present release target date for WES & how does that compare with the planned XPe SP3 release date?
A: Greg, the announcement regarding release plans for Windows Embedded Standard can be found at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/news/pressreleases/we_standard2009.mspx.  There have been no announcements regarding a release date for  XP Embedded Service Pack 3, but please stay tuned to the Mobile & Embedded Communications website, the Connect website or our Windows Embedded blog for future updates.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: Is FBA supposed to auto-run the dotnetfx35.exe installer?  The one time I tried it, the CTP2 version of FBA did not auto-install NET35.
A: By default the .NET 3.5 Setup component will not install the framework, just the dependencies to support the framework. If you want to install the framework during FBA you can check the check box in the settings of the component.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: What is better EWF or FBWF?
A: That depends on what you plan to do.  EWF protects an entire volume from write operations, while FBWF lets you select which files and folders you want to protect.  FBWF offers more flexibility, but EWF can also protect against lower-level write operations that FBWF doesn't.  EWF can be used to keep your runtime at a consistent state - each time you boot, it'll boot the same way, having rejected any changes that were made on the last boot.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: XPe has been said to be more self-protecting against viruses, because there can be missing some components the viruses need. What's the truth about it? Should WES be protected with antivirus software?
A: Since XPe is a componentized version of XP Pro, it is always possible for a virus written for XP Pro to also affect XPe.  However, many runtimes are "stripped-down" versions of XP Pro, and will only contain components relevant to the developers.  An XPe runtime will most often contain less components than a full Pro system, meaning that it has a lower attack surface area.  But if your runtime is going to be in an environment where viruses could be propagated to the system (like on a public network), it is still a good idea to look into anti-virus/anti-malware solutions.  This is something the developer would need to assess at design time.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: best practices ques: acting as a thin client device, should xpe join a domain, be patched and have anitvirus? How will MBSA/Foundstone scans detect xpe?
A: As WES is using the same binaries as XP Professional it is vulnerable to the same viruses etc, depending on what Windows Features you have installed. WES can certainly be on a domain but you should take the same precautions as you would for an XP PC on the same domain. There are a number of companies that have componentized anti-virus\firewall applications for embedded. Images can be patched using WSUS or SCCM if those are using in your network. The latest version of MBSA has knowledge of WES devices and will report correctly (I am not familiar with Foundstone).

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: I currently have an evaluation version of XPe, when it expires, what do I need to do to continue developing with XPe or switch to WES
A: The tools you get with the evaluation version of XPe do not expire. However, the XPe images have a 120 days timebomb.

Rajib [MS] (Expert):
Q: I recently installed ROLLUP1 ontop of XPE Service Pack 2.  However, 'shutdown' does not appear to work, when using USB boot on laptops. Any suggestions?
A: Please upload your exact information to the Microsoft Windows Embedded newsgroup http://forums.microsoft.com/embeddedwindows/ with exact detail.

johndoy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: How many of the you will update embedded devices that are already in the field with Service Pack 3?

johndoy_MSFT (Expert):
Q: How many of you plan to move to Windows Embedded Standard once available?

VernS: Since we have a new product, I would like to release it with WES as soon as reasonable so customers have a longer field life.
KrisF: My company will be updating devices from SP2 or SP3 to WES.
GregH: We plan on moving to WES, When will it be available John? -
willie: Yes, new product will be WES from day one.
ingequa: We plan to switch to WES as soon as it's available
lwdaddio: We plan to move to WES once available

Chesong [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: To preserve flash memory life, what is better, EWF or FBWF?
A: Both helps protect your flash memory life. Which is better to protect your flash depends on your usage pattern. EWF and FBWF both support a write-through feature in different ways. "Write-through" is a contributing factor to your flash memory wear when you use FBWF or EWF.

Rajib [MS] (Expert):
Q: Is it possible to create a custom logon screen?  For example, it would be nice to set the MUI language *before* starting Explorer + our main app.
A: Yes it can be done. You need to create a custom theme that should be set as default theme. This theme should contain the color of your choice and "before" word

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: Is it possible to create a custom logon screen?  For example, it would be nice to set the MUI language *before* starting Explorer + our main app.
A: It is OK for you to use a custom logon application. You can set the input language to be the in the language you need by setting this in the Regional and Language Options component.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: re: custom logon screen.  To clarify, we want user to select MUI language on-the-fly.  MUI selection is not fixed at build time.
A: The only way currently for the user to select the language they want is through the Regional and Languages Control Panel on the runtime (once already at the desktop). It may be possible to have your app or shell change the same reg keys that would be set by this control panel when selecting a language.

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Is WES in a different build environment, thought I heard it was in a Visual Studio Environment - not Target Designer.  Any info would be great - thank you.
A: Have you tried the Community Technology Preview of Windows Embedded Standard? This will give you an idea of what to expect in the final release. https://connect.microsoft.com/windowsembedded

Luca [MS] (Expert):
Q: After WES is out, how long XPe will be supported ? Do we "need" to move from Xpe to WES?
A: XPe mainstream support will end 2 years after Windows Embedded Standard is released and will be followed by 5 years extended support.

Cuong Pham { MS }  (Expert):
Q: What about licensing policy for WES? Is it the same as for XPe?
A: Licensing policy for Windows Embedded Standard will be similar to that for XPe.

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Can anyone point me to a site that would provide detailed comparison of XPe SP2/SP3 and WES?
A: You can look at our main page: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/products/westandard/default.mspx for a comparison between Windows Embedded Standard and XPe.

Gina [MS] (Expert):
Q: Do you have a date or a month when WES will be available? (not beta form)
A: The publicly announced information is what can be found at this URL, http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/news/pressreleases/we_standard2009.mspx which states availability in the fourth quarter of 2008.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Since WES is componentized version of XP Professional, would it be correct to say that every software developed for XP Pro will work on WES?
A: Not necessarily.  Generally speaking, most programs that run in Pro will run in XPe as well, but this is only true if the necessary supporting components are included in the runtime.  Additionally, there may be some licensing issues with certain pieces of software (for example, MS Office is not licensed to be used in XPe/WES).

End of Chat

Shayna Begun [MS] (Moderator):
Thank you for joining us today for our chat with the Windows Embedded Standard team.

A special thank you to the product group members for hosting today.  If you have further questions, we’d certainly welcome you to post in the Windows Embedded Standard forum: http://forums.microsoft.com/EmbeddedWindows. Don’t forget to check out our blog as well: http://blogs.msdn.com/embedded.  

We hope to see you again for a future chat!