Windows XP Embedded January Chat (January 29, 2008)

Chat Topic: Windows XP Embedded January Chat
Date: Tuesday, January 29th, 2008

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Welcome to today’s chat with the Windows XP Embedded team!  We also have a special guest expert joining us today: Alexander Wechsler, who is one of our XP Embedded MVPs.  Alexander Wechsler has been working for many years successfully doing project and partner management for customers in the enterprise and embedded market. He has been recognized several times with national and international “Enterprise Knowledge Management” and “Best Practice” awards. He speaks at international developer conferences and at Universities about application and system development. He is the founder of Wechsler Consulting . His area of expertise in Embedded is HORM and management of devices so if you have any questions around that, or anything else related to XP Embedded please ask away!!

We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.

Introductions:

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Hi there.  I'm Matt Kellner, an SDET with the Windows Embedded Team.

Jim_M_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Jim Medding. I'm a SW development engineer with the Windows Embedded test team.

CParker_MSFT (Expert):
As of November, I am the project and release manager for all embedded windows projects in VI and EW.  I have been with Microsoft for 8.5 years and have worked as a consultant, in sales, and most recently was the program manager for device management in System Center Configuration Manager and for the management pack for SCCM07.

milong [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Milong Sabandith. I'm a Development Lead with the Windows Embedded Team.

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Hi I'm Steffen Schreier, Lead Program Manager with the Embedded Windows team

Shabnam_MSFT (Expert):
Hello, I'm Shabnam Erfani, Lead PM in the Windows Embedded team

Start of Chat:

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: XP embedded has IIS5.1. will IIS 6.0 be supported in the near future?
A: There are no current plans to create an  IIS 6.0 component in the immediate future for XP Embedded.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Until IIS6 is supported, will it be OK to install the IISLockDown patch?
A: Unless this patch is made available from the ECE download site then it would not be fully supported under the licensing terms

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: The reason for IIS6 or the patch is a customer (Govt) has run Retina from eEye.com and it reports that the .htw extension is open and is prone to attacks. The patch does close this hole so I would like to use it on my embedded systems.
A: You might want to open a support request with Customer Support Services with your business case for this feature on X Embedded. That would expedite possibly getting the patch made available for Embedded

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I have run a Registry Machanic scan to optimize my registery. The program records and fixes found problems.  One custom controls problem keeps coming thru on the scan that the program will not repair. It states Missing or invalid-HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{0
A: Hi there.  Is this a problem you're having with a Windows XP Embedded device or runtime?  If not, we unfortunately can't help you with this issue here.  Please try asking your question in one of the Windows newsgroups or contacting Customer Support Services.

milong [MS] (Expert):
Q: Can I use EWF when I do not have a real hard drive, but just compact flash memory?
A: Since flash devices have a finite number of writes before failure, EWF can be used to protect the device. See the following link for more information: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms838638.aspx

Q: OK, if CF cards are great with EWF, what model should I use? Ram-reg? or what?
A: RAM-REG mode is probably your best bet for the EWF model, as it stores the EWF configuration information in your registry and requires no additional setup on the CF card (multi-partitioning, etc.).

milong [MS] (Expert):
Q: Question:  How do I protect a non-EWF partition on a IDE Disk On Module from a "surprise turnoff"?  My IDE DOM gets corrupted when I use the Win32 function DeleteFile and the computer gets turned off without a graceful shutdown.  Any solution to this?
A: Just to clarify, you have delete operations on an unprotected partition and that is causing corruption if the computer gets turned off? Is it an option to protect the partition as well? Maybe you can protect it using FBWF and allow only certain folders to have write-through access to limit the writes. That may help alleviate the corruption issue.

milong [MS] (Expert):
Q: To Milong:  Yes, DeleteFile cannot be "flushed" using the FlushFileBuffer API and when I'm using DeleteFile to delete 50 or so files, the user shuts the machine off and ruins the 2nd partition.  Would FBWF help here?
A: Do the delete operations have to persist accross reboots? If not you can protect it using either EWF or FBWF. It they must persist, are there other writes occuring on that partition that don't need to persist? If so, FBWF can help limit your writes to just the deletes. That might help with your corruption.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What is HORM?
A: HOrm is hibernate resume many, the chance to boot from a one time created hibernation file.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Why is EWF required to do HORM?
A: EWF takes care of data (files etc.) in the one time created hibernation file and on the protected partition so they do not get out of sync after reboots. If EWF would is not be there one would could experience missing files or Zombies

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What influences reboot performance doing HORM?
A: The main factor is the size of RAM. But, processor and disk throughput can also have quite some impact.

I have seen powerful system with 2GB of RAM booting in under 10 seconds, but looking at a standard industrial automation controller e.g. having a CF card as storage, ranging from hibernation would take longer than a cold boot with this size of RAM. RAM-Reg would be the preferred model to protect Flash cards.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can the size of the hibernation file be adjusted?
A: Well You can limit the size of the hibernation file by using the /maxmem switch in the boot .ini. But this means also giving away normally available RAM for the system during runtime.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What happens if I turn off EWF and not have turned off HORM?
A: Turning off EWF automatically turns off HORM and invalidates the hibernation file

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What is the difference between Resmany.dat and HORM.dat
A: Resmany.dat is a file that shipped before FP2007, similar to HORM.dat. It was an empty file used as a switch for EWF NTLDR. HORM.dat is now used in the same way, but it is

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: I have enabled HORM in my configuration but it does not start. I am also not able to enable hibernation via control panel although I have configured it in TD.
A: This is a common problem, if you do not have the correct graphic adapter driver. You need to ensure that your driver supports hibernation

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Does HORM work with all applications and peripherals?
A: Unfortunately, no! You need to test your apps and devices if they perform in the desired way when using HORM.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can HORM be used with EWF in disk overlay mode?
A: No, the problem here is data consistency. The hibernation file and the systems view on the protected partition get out of sync because changes are persisted in the overlay during reboots. Use of EWF with hibernation is only supported in EWF RAM and RAM Reg

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Is it possible to change the hibernation file without turning off HORM?
A: Sure, just recreate the hibernation file. Doing this the new content gets written through to the hibernation file. But, be aware that the changes you made are not persisted in the protected partition. If you lose the hibernation file, all of them are lost.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What can I do, if I need to store data and still want to have a protected partition?
A: Use EWF and HORM on the OD partition and the File Based Write Filter (FBWF) on a second partition and configure the latter to allow writes for the directories or files you require.

Be aware that you need to handle the unprotected partition (un-/remount).

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can I do HORM when booting from CD ROM?
A: I have tried that, but it does not work. There seems to be a problem in the order registry keys are load while running through the El-Torito boot sequence.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can I use FBWF with HORM?
A: FBWF cannot be used to protect the system volume when implementing HORM, the system volume must be protected with EWF.  This is because any files or folders that are on the FBWF exclusion list and get updated willl cause the hiberfile.sys to be out of sync

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: How much RAM do I need for HORM?
A: As the hiberfile is a complete snapshot of your OS you need at least the same amount of RAM as the size of your OS in which to store the information.

milong [MS] (Expert):
Hi, Does anyone use Registry Filter with the write filters? If so what keys do you persist? Do you persist any custom keys?

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Could someone clarify the disk caching issue for non-removable IDE hard drives?  We have an XPe device which can be shut off at any time by our users (the device is mounted in semi-trucks).  We use a solid-state IDE Disk-On-Module split into two partitions. The first partition is protected by RAM-REG EWF, the second is not.  When we shut of the machine, the second drive is corrupted during programs running "DeleteFile" (which cannot be flushed) Is there caching on IDE fixed disks?
A: The problem with a mounted unprotected IDE drive is that the indexes are stored in the hivbernation file memory. This leads to inconsistencies. You could use Alexander's HORM Manager tool to unmount the unprotected partition before creating a hibernation file.

Mike Moini [MS] (Expert):
Q: A lot of industrial PanelPCs comes with a single IDE channel, usually hardcoded to master for IDE HD and slave for CF. HORM does not work on such a machine using only CF. (MS KB 330100). Do you expect (Microsoft) to solve it soon ? (System Halts during PA, You could replace the HD with a CF card, or?
A: currently there are no plans to solve this problem

Andy_MS (Moderator):
Q: When can we expect to see another rollup of patches?
A: If you're referring to the routine rollup of security patches to include all other patches prior to it since Service Pack 2 then I'm pretty sure the next one is in February.

Mike Moini [MS] (Expert):
Q:I did not see a reply, when can we expect to see another SP rollup?
A:The answer was posted by Andy_MS as " If you're referring to the routine rollup of security patches to include all other patches prior to it since Service Pack 2 then I'm pretty sure the next one is in February."

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q:Little question, Is it possible to join a Domain from a SDI image?
A:Jacque, do you mean booting from an SDI Image?

Q: yeah booting from a SDI. I got a Image and I want it to be able to join a Domain
A: I think it should be therethically possible, but You are required to rejoin the Domain after every boot. There will also be problems with the machine account password in AD.

Q: Would it be possible to make the SDI know that he is in a Domain and connect to it on everyboot?
A: Jacque, sorry no Domain participation is machine specific and you need admin rights to join

Q: I know that Domain is machine specific and Admin right would be given to the "image" but if I can at least make one image to join a domain automaticly, I will be able to do a different image by pc.
A: Jacque, yes you could script a domain join using the Windows Scripting host and WMI

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What are the standard ways to service XPe devices in the field?
A: Microsoft has three standard offerings. Device Update Agent, Windows Server Update Services and System Center Configuration Manager. Some partners also offer their own customer servicing tools and solutions.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can I do remote OS update with those as well?
A: Not out of the box. But it can be achieved with DUA and SCCM doing some heavier customization.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: DUA looks pretty self contained and usable. Are there any pitfalls?
A: Well, it can get quite some work to create update scripts for more complex updates using DUA. The DUA Generator tool by Mike Hall and Aaron Stebner is a great help, but there is no real development environment with debugging support for it.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: When would you recommend WSUS?
A: Only if the company that deploys the XPe devices is already having the WSUS (Windows Server Update Services) infrastructure in place. The  problem with WSUS is that it only delivers OS update not application updates. Therefore You to think about an additional way how to service your app.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What about System Center Configuration Manager (SCCM)? When does it make sense?
A: SCCM  is the successor to SMS (Systems Management Server) . It is very often is used to service XPe devices when it is already company standard. It normally does not make sense to set up the costly SCCM infrastructure for the XPe devices alone.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Which of the Microsoft options is giving me the most flexibility and power looking at servicing devices?
A: SCCM, in addition to updating software it offers hardware inventory and a quite a few different abilities to target machines e.g. on OS properties or even users working with them.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: I am planning a large scale deployment. Which of the options would be viable?
A: All three scale pretty well, respectively can be assembled to architectures that scale. Nevertheless the best proven record here have SCCM  (100000 User on a single site) and WSUS (e.g. 15000 /site).

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can I use SMS to distribute files and registry keys for feature components I have forgotten to add to my image?
A: The approach would be different than simply copying files and reg keys. You would be required to create a .msi Windows Installer installation package to distribute  with SCCM. Bear in mind that adding features is always a risk.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: Can I use SCCM to service low footprint devices?
A: The minimum footprint including the SCCM Advanced Client is about 200 MB. If your image  is smaller use DUA (component footprint 3MB).

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: What if I have FBWF\EWF and/or HORM enabled on my device? Are there any best practices?
A: Yes, at foremost FBWF\EWF and HORM requires an update strategy, because they are making servicing more complex. Reboot / Turn off write Filters / Update / Turn them on again

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Does HORM work on a XPe virtual machine (under VMWare)
A: Yes, HORM works in virtual machine environments.

Alex_Wechsler_MVP (Expert):
Q: I'm completely new to XPe and HORM.   Besides microsoft's site, is there any other good web sites to visit for examples or training on building working image files?  I have yet to be successful in a working image.  My application is kiosks.  Thx
A: Have a look at XPe Files: www.xpefiles.com

End of Chat

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Thank you for joining us today for our chat with the Windows XP Embedded team.

A special thank you to the product group members for hosting today, and to Alexander Wechsler for joining us as a guest expert.

If you have further questions, we’d certainly welcome you to post in the XP Embedded forum: http://forums.microsoft.com/EmbeddedWindows or the newsgroup: microsoft.public.windowsxp.embedded.  Don’t forget to check out our blog as well: http://blogs.msdn.com/embedded.

A link to the transcript will be posted to the blog, forum and newsgroup in the next two weeks.

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