Windows XP Embedded October Chat (October 16, 2007)

Chat Topic: Windows XP Embedded October Chat!
Date: October 16, 2007

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Welcome to today’s chat with the Windows XP Embedded team! We also have a special guest expert joining us today: Brad Combs, who is one of our XP Embedded MVPs. Brad is the owner of Imago Technologies, LLC. Imago is focused on consulting services and software development for the embedded industry. Brad is the creator of XPeFiles.com. XPeFiles.com is a community driven site for components, tutorials, and information about Windows XP Embedded. He has done a lot of work recently around how to use ImageX and WIM files to deploy Windows XP Embedded – so if you have any questions around that, or anything else related to XP Embedded please ask away!!

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.

Introductions:

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Hi everyone. I'm Matt, a test engineer with the Windows Embedded group.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Lynda Allen. I'm a PM on the Embedded team focused on Community.

BCombs (Expert):
My name is Brad Combs and I'm the owner of Imago Technologies, LLC.

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Steffen Schreier, Program Manager on the Embedded Windows Team.

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Hi, my name is Shayna Begun and I am a Program Manager on the Windows Embedded.

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Moderator):
Hello, everyone! I am Weijuan Shi, Program Manager of the Embedded Windows Customer Strike Team.

Nick [MS] (Expert):
Hi - I'm Nick. I'm a Software Design Engineer on the Test Team here in Embedded Windows.

RandyR [MS] (Expert):
Hello, I'm Randy Rockinson, PM on the Windows Embedded Team.

Prestv_MSFT (Expert):
I'm Preston VanderWeyst, a software development engineer on the Windows Embedded Team

Jim_MSFT (Expert):
Hi, I'm Jim Medding. I'm a SW development engineer with the Windows Embedded test team.

Shweta [MS] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Shweta Garg, a developer on the Embedded Windows team.

Start of Chat:

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Let’s begin the chat!

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: Is there a script to Lockout all Microsoft LAN accounts that haven’t been used in more than 90 days?
A: Although this is not specific to XP Embedded, you could use group policy settings to manage accounts and how long they are valid for.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: What are the benefits of using WIM images compared to SDI images?
A: WIM images are a different type of file format than SDI. WIM images are file based as opposed to SDI images which are sector based. This means that WIM images are only the size of the files intended for the target partition as opposed to the size of the partition itself. Also, WIM files are single instance meaning that any duplicate files are included only once in the WIM reducing its overall size.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: What's the best method to deploy images and generate unique machine IDs?
A: Hello, the XPE tools have a component called "System Cloning Tool" in the catalog that accomplishes this. The cloning tool allows you to create unique machine ID's (much like the full XP Pro's Sysprep utility). The cloning tool is run in conjunction with FBreseal. Here's an overview of the component on MSDN http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Aa940450.aspx

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Can you use WIM for updating a running image?
A: Sure, WIM is non destructive so you can use it to deploy incremental updates you create with the Image Differencing Engine.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Does ImageX work on XP Professional or do I need Windows Vista?
A: ImageX does work on XP Professional. Some Windows XP systems need a QFE applied in order to use all the functionality of ImageX. Visit http://support.microsoft.com/kb/914882 for download information. Also, reference the readme included with the Windows Automated Installation kit for other issues related to working with ImageX and WIM files.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Does the system cloning tool have to be run manually/install time?
A: System Cloning Tool gives you the option of either running automatically at install time (phase 12000 during FBA), or having you run it manually. You can choose an automatic reseal if all of your image configuration tasks will be complete when FBA is finished running. If you have extra configuration tasks you'd like to do post-FBA before resealing the image, choose "Manual reseal" and then run "fbreseal.exe" when you're ready. You can reboot as many times as you need to before running fbreseal.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: How do I get the Windows Automated Installation Kit? Is it free?
A: The Windows Automated Installation Kit is a free download. For more information visit the Microsoft website: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=C7D4BC6D-15F3-4284-9123-679830D629F2&displaylang=en

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Q: What's a good source of information on the Image Differencing Engine?
A: You can download the tool from the Mobile and Embedded Communications Extranet (https://ece.partners.extranet.microsoft.com/). Here is a link to our blog listing the download locations for Image Diff http://blogs.msdn.com/embedded/archive/2007/03/02/here-we-go-the-microsoft-windows-xp-embedded-image- difference-engine-has-been-released.aspx

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Q: Any trial version of Image Differencing Engine or temp username/password for the ECE site?
A: No, you need a signed Customer License Agreement (CLA) with Microsoft in order to get access to the website.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: What media can I use to deploy XPe using ImageX? Can I use USB Flash disks, or CD-ROM’s?
A: You have several options for bootable media when using Windows PE 2.0. You could use UFD disks, CD-Rom’s, or a third party PXE solution. For example to prepare a UFD disk take a look at http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsVista/en/library/31b6b2c0-2739-4204-88f0-2000a4b9e20a1033.mspx?mfr=true

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Can I customize Windows PE so that my customer sees only my logo and a progress indicator?
A: Windows PE is fully customizable via scripts or custom applications. Many large desktop computer manufacturers are using Windows PE to create a customized restore solution that is delivered with their systems. For additional information take a look at the documentation supplied with the Windows Automated Installation Kit (WAIK). Specifically: http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsVista/en/library/08629d0b-56b0-4194-9782-88d01a488ae01033.mspx?mfr=true

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: So what technique would preserve the ID across image upgrades?
A: When you upgrade an entire image, you would identify the machine name in the toolkit, as you're replacing the entire image, it's going to have to go through FBA again.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
HI HP... if I'm understanding the question right, you can preserve name across image upgrades... depending on how you perform the upgrade. :-D For instance using DUA, or SUS, you're simply replacing/upgrading binaries, not replacing the entire image.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: What if it's just a partial upgrade?
A: if you're partially upgrading the image, you're not really replacing the "image"... just simply updating binaries, reg keys, ETC... the machine name remains intact, as long as you don't replace that key in the registry

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: If our granularity on replacing the registry is such that we have to overwrite the whole thing can we copy out the registry key and put it back?
A: Yes, you can script capture of the registry and export of specific keys.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: This works for the windows ID key and the machine specific encryption keys?
A: The SID is not exportable... it's encrypted and it unique to several things in the machine.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Since the SID can't be exported is there a tool you provide to back up a deployed image, similar to what Norton Ghost does?
A: Yes... you can use System Deployment Imaging to back up images. (SDI) check http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/embedded/default.aspx

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I want to include a number of services as part of my XPe image. Any links to articles on how to include a service?
A: In general, if the service is one that ships with Windows XP, you should be able to find the corresponding component for it in your component database and include it in your runtime configuration. It will be setup automatically during build time and/or FBA. If you have your own service, you will need to either componentize it, set it up manually (or via a script of your own), or install it post-FBA.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Is there a best practice doc for reducing image foot print?
A: No particular "best practices doc" that I'm aware of, however a good rule of thumb is to not auto resolve in dependency check... manual resolution keeps the image bloat down.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: Is there a best practice doc for reducing image foot print?
A: There is not one doc that covers every situation. You could look at:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb147519.aspx
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en- us/library/ms912929.aspx
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms940128.aspx

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Slightly off topic, but what are the performance issues with XPe vs. XP Pro/Home. Would XPe perform better/worse in CPU, memory and/or hard disk intensive applications? I have been unable to find any documentation on the subject.
A: The answer really varies on that question... it really depends on what you're doing with your image. As a general rule, XPE will run on substantially less intensive hardware than XP Pro/Home.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Slightly off topic, but what are the performance issues with XPe vs. XP Pro/Home. Would XPe perform better/worse in CPU, memory and/or hard disk intensive applications? I have been unable to find any documentation on the subject.
A: It depends on what you're doing. In XP Pro, you generally have most or all of the features that ship with the OS, whereas in XPe, you can pick and choose which features to include. The resulting Embedded runtime can be significantly smaller and use less memory simply because less things are running, depending on which features you pull in. However, individual features aren't necessarily going to perform better in XPe than in Pro (for instance, WMP may perform the same between the two), since both systems use the same binaries. The main place where you'll see an improvement in performance is where a feature's performance is being affected by other features competing for the same resources.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: Is there a best practice document for implementing embedded image deployment using WIM and IMAGEX (and all the tools you mention Image Diff Engine, system cloning tool)?
A: There is currently no "best practices" doc that details WIM and IMAGEX (perhaps we can persuade Brad to write a whitepaper for MSDN on this!). Brad has some tips on this on http://www.xpefiles.com

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Does Windows PE support networking?
A: By default Windows PE includes a set of network adapter drivers that support many of the common adapters in use today. If a newer driver is necessary you can include it into the Windows PE environment. WinPE uses typical Windows Vista drivers. This allows you to access WIM files that may be stored on remote servers.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: In what file does Windows XP store the signature, which is required in the activation process? I am student and I need this for my work... :D:D
A: If you're referring to XP Embedded, it does not require activation.

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Q: What's the best way to copy out the text from the chat answers without waiting for the post on the embedded blog?
A: The best way is simply to copy the Answers from the Experts section before leaving the room.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Can someone help me I have a 300gig hard drive as my local drive and a 40gig hard drive as a backup drive, can you tell how can I make the 40gig hard drive as my local drive and the 300gig hard drive as my back up drive instead?
A: You specify the boot ARC path in Target designer... tell it to boot to the other drive... the default is drive 0, change it to 1.

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Q: Does the WIM/Differencing engine only apply to MS code in target designer?
A: The Image Differencing Engine is separate from Target Designer. It processes images that are post FBA. Here is a link to our blog describing Image Diff http://blogs.msdn.com/embedded/archive/2007/03/14/image-diff-how-does-it-work.aspx. You can also use Image Diff to apply non Microsoft updates.

MattKell_MSFT (Expert):
Q: I've heard that the XPe tools are not multi-threaded. Since I'm a beginner with XPe development, the question is, will multithreaded Windows application run as multithreaded in the target machine?
A: The XPe development tools (Target Designer, Component Designer, etc) are single-threaded, this is correct. However, this has no impact on the XPe runtime image - the runtime image supports multi-threading just as XP Pro does, so if you have a multi-threaded application, it will run correctly in XPe.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Can I use ImageX to deploy both pre-FBA and post-FBA images?
A: Yes, you could use WinPE and ImageX to deploy a pre-FBA image, then after FBA has completed boot to WinPE again and create a new WIM of the post-FBA image for deployment later. This is also useful for capturing an image of the device in different states while you are executing post-FBA configuration steps.

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Hi, will ImageX work with WEPOS?
A: You can run ImageX on WEPOS to manage your own WIMs, but you can't run ImageX against the WEPOS WIMs that are provided by Microsoft. You can also post your question to the WEPOS newsgroup for a more lengthy response.

Weijuan Shi [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Can we distribute trial XPe images for Microsoft Virtual PC? If not, is that the final word on the subject, or can I email someone to discuss this issue?
A: What do you mean by "distribute"? If you were asking if the image built from the trial version can be used on VPC, the answer should be yes. The trial version is almost identical to the OEM version. The major difference is the license agreement.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: Distribute as in share a trial XPe image for Virtual PC (vhd file) online and have people be able to download and run it in a Virtual PC environment…
A: Licensing Prohibits this type of usage.

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Q: How can my application determine if the operating system is XP or XPe?
A: The preferred, programmatic method to discover the operating system version is described here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en- us/sysinfo/base/osversioninfoex_str.asp . You can find it as VER_SUITE_EMBEDDEDNT. However, another method is to directly inspect the registry: HKLM\system\ccs\control\ProductOptions\ProductSuite as value type = Reg_Multi_SZ value contents = "EmbeddedNT"

Steffen [MS] (Expert):
Q: How can my application determine if the operating system is XP or XPe?
A: you can use the following to identify the version of your runtime: HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Windows\CSDVersion If XP SP2 is installed, this field contains 200 hexadecimal. If you use the SP1 version of the XP Embedded database, your runtime will not automatically report that Service Pack 1 is installed. Your runtime will report Service Pack 1 as being installed only if you add the following registry value to your runtime build: HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Windows\CSDVersion as value type REG_DWORD and value 100 (Hexadecimal). Once you add the registry entry, then reboot your runtime, WINVER or MSINFO32 will report that the build includes Service Pack 1.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Is there other information available about Windows PE 2.0, the Windows Automated Installation Kit, and ImageX?
A: Please visit the following websites for information: Windows PE 2.0 / WAIK: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=C7D4BC6D-15F3-4284-9123-679830D629F2&displaylang=en ImageX : http://technet.microsoft.com/en- us/windowsvista/aa905070.aspx & http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsVista/en/library/a8848521-b3ca-4c6c-81f0-6954f671cfe01033.mspx?mfr=true

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: General XP embedded question: Does windows XPE expose Kerberos API's for authentication with certificates stored on smart cards?
A: The exact same binaries are included with XP Embedded as with XP Pro, so you should be able to work with Kerberos in exactly the same way as you would on Pro.

lyallen_MSFT (Moderator):
Q: The info we've found is for winlogon (ctrl+alt+del) and we aren’t' on the domain. Do you know where we can find Kerberos info specific to this (not winlogon )?
A: I am not an expert on Kerberos, so I can only recommend that you search MSDN for more info on using Kerberos outside a domain. Most info I see on Kerberos is discussing Kerberos in a domain context.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Are there any limitations to using ImageX & WinPE to deploy my images?
A: One limitation I am aware of is that in order to prepare UFD disks to boot Windows PE 2.0 you cannot use diskpart on Windows XP Professional. So, in order to prepare the UFD either use a Windows Vista computer, or boot a system to VistaPE by CD-Rom and prepare the UFD from there. Also keep in mind that in order to work with ImageX on Windows XP you need SP2 and the filter manager rollup package: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/914882

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Can I deliver a Windows PE solution with my device without any additional charges?
A: For licensing information about Windows PE 2.0 contact your distributor.

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Q: Just my 2 cents, but XPe is in need of some Visual Tools to allow the developer to more easily select the appropriate component needed for an application. Sort of, if I need to build a Web Server XPe system, here are the components possible and what they do.A: Thanks for your feedback. We'll take that into consideration for future releases.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Peter, the tools include some templates to help get you started... there's also some books and tutorials out there to help.

jcoyne_MSFT (Expert):
Q: The problem is that I suppose a lot of us are not OS or driver developers. Too much of current XPe development is going into a trial and error process. Need new tools ... Please :-) A: There are a ton of resources out there to help... you don't actually have to be a Driver developer or Super Code Guy. Check out the resources on MSDN and contact us through the forum if you have specific questions: http://forums.microsoft.com/EmbeddedWindows.

BCombs (Expert):
Q: Is there a way to capture a WIM image that would work for multiple terminals? In other words, a single image that could be tweaked to include the necessary core drivers for multiple chipsets, etc and could be restored to and used for several terminals?
A: You can certainly create an XP Embedded image that supports multiple hardware platforms. The only limitation is that with XPe you cannot support two different HAL's. So, either both systems need to use ACPI or both systems need to use Standard PC. As long as you can meet this requirement you can support multiple video adapters, sound cards, etc... with a single image. You can then capture and deploy that single image using ImageX. Or, if you are wanting to create a WIM with multiple images in it you can do that. You would just specify the image name to deploy in ImageX. End of Chat

Shayna [MS] (Moderator):
Thank you for joining us today for our chat with the Windows XP Embedded team. A special thank you to the product group members for hosting today, and to Brad Combs for joining us as a guest expert. If you have further questions, we’d certainly welcome you to post in the XP Embedded forum: http://forums.microsoft.com/EmbeddedWindows or the newsgroup: microsoft.public.windowsxp.embedded. Don’t forget to check out our blog as well: http://blogs.msdn.com/embedded. We hope to see you again for a future chat!